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	<title>Comments on: Khamir Rouge</title>
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	<link>http://noenthuda.com/blog/2013/01/30/khamir-rouge/</link>
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		<title>By: GB</title>
		<link>http://noenthuda.com/blog/2013/01/30/khamir-rouge/comment-page-1/#comment-201721</link>
		<dc:creator>GB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Feb 2013 05:28:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noenthuda.com/blog/?p=2702#comment-201721</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh btw...that article on washingtonpost I hear was total crap.  Nothing of that sort is happening. There has been some vague proposal of sorts for over 10 years but there was no reason to write about it now as if it were happening.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh btw&#8230;that article on washingtonpost I hear was total crap.  Nothing of that sort is happening. There has been some vague proposal of sorts for over 10 years but there was no reason to write about it now as if it were happening.</p>
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		<title>By: India: Not-for-profit vs. For-profit Ventures &#183; Global Voices</title>
		<link>http://noenthuda.com/blog/2013/01/30/khamir-rouge/comment-page-1/#comment-201641</link>
		<dc:creator>India: Not-for-profit vs. For-profit Ventures &#183; Global Voices</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2013 19:31:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noenthuda.com/blog/?p=2702#comment-201641</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] and thus give the artisans a false impression that demand actually exists for their produce. Pertinent Observations finds the entire ecosystem [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] and thus give the artisans a false impression that demand actually exists for their produce. Pertinent Observations finds the entire ecosystem [...]</p>
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		<title>By: shankin</title>
		<link>http://noenthuda.com/blog/2013/01/30/khamir-rouge/comment-page-1/#comment-201640</link>
		<dc:creator>shankin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2013 19:22:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noenthuda.com/blog/?p=2702#comment-201640</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/tech-telecom-giants-take-sides-as-fcc-proposes-large-public-wifi-networks/2013/02/03/eb27d3e0-698b-11e2-ada3-d86a4806d5ee_story.html?hpid=z1

Another &quot;data point&quot; for RG&#039;s philosophical question. I don&#039;t have an answer to the philosophical question, but I would be interested in that discussion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/tech-telecom-giants-take-sides-as-fcc-proposes-large-public-wifi-networks/2013/02/03/eb27d3e0-698b-11e2-ada3-d86a4806d5ee_story.html?hpid=z1" rel="nofollow">http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/tech-telecom-giants-take-sides-as-fcc-proposes-large-public-wifi-networks/2013/02/03/eb27d3e0-698b-11e2-ada3-d86a4806d5ee_story.html?hpid=z1</a></p>
<p>Another &#8220;data point&#8221; for RG&#8217;s philosophical question. I don&#8217;t have an answer to the philosophical question, but I would be interested in that discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: Naren</title>
		<link>http://noenthuda.com/blog/2013/01/30/khamir-rouge/comment-page-1/#comment-201627</link>
		<dc:creator>Naren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2013 05:53:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noenthuda.com/blog/?p=2702#comment-201627</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The very fact that you refer to them as hand-weavers &amp; NOT designers strengthens my point!

If they were better designers, you&#039;d be referring to them as traditional designers, not as &quot;hand&quot; something.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The very fact that you refer to them as hand-weavers &amp; NOT designers strengthens my point!</p>
<p>If they were better designers, you&#8217;d be referring to them as traditional designers, not as &#8220;hand&#8221; something.</p>
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		<title>By: Robby</title>
		<link>http://noenthuda.com/blog/2013/01/30/khamir-rouge/comment-page-1/#comment-201618</link>
		<dc:creator>Robby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Feb 2013 17:20:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noenthuda.com/blog/?p=2702#comment-201618</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is possibly a naive perspective nonetheless I shall hazard an opinion. 

Allowing funding for non profit organizations in this domain can bring the prices down like you have deduced, but is it not conceivable that there may be various benefits. For example, you were there for a workshop, while you may not have been too pleased with the experience, but there may have been many who went back happy and with a bagful of handicrafts.  What i&#039;m getting at is, a not-for profit will serve to promote. You seem to be imagining a situation where the entire handicraft scene will dominated by not for profits thus killing the &#039;Kingfishers&#039; in the long run. How about envisaging an ecospace where the non profits function sort of like advertising agencies, which will eventually allow the &quot;Kingfishers&#039; to flourish (I&#039;m assuming here that at some stage it will get easier for the artisans to obtain funding).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is possibly a naive perspective nonetheless I shall hazard an opinion. </p>
<p>Allowing funding for non profit organizations in this domain can bring the prices down like you have deduced, but is it not conceivable that there may be various benefits. For example, you were there for a workshop, while you may not have been too pleased with the experience, but there may have been many who went back happy and with a bagful of handicrafts.  What i&#8217;m getting at is, a not-for profit will serve to promote. You seem to be imagining a situation where the entire handicraft scene will dominated by not for profits thus killing the &#8216;Kingfishers&#8217; in the long run. How about envisaging an ecospace where the non profits function sort of like advertising agencies, which will eventually allow the &#8220;Kingfishers&#8217; to flourish (I&#8217;m assuming here that at some stage it will get easier for the artisans to obtain funding).</p>
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		<title>By: Anon</title>
		<link>http://noenthuda.com/blog/2013/01/30/khamir-rouge/comment-page-1/#comment-201617</link>
		<dc:creator>Anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Feb 2013 16:27:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noenthuda.com/blog/?p=2702#comment-201617</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Naren, are you saying that hand weavers (and other traditional craftsmen) cannot/do not create original, fresh, new designs? If you are, it is a very foolish thing to say.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Naren, are you saying that hand weavers (and other traditional craftsmen) cannot/do not create original, fresh, new designs? If you are, it is a very foolish thing to say.</p>
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		<title>By: shankin</title>
		<link>http://noenthuda.com/blog/2013/01/30/khamir-rouge/comment-page-1/#comment-201589</link>
		<dc:creator>shankin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2013 21:37:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noenthuda.com/blog/?p=2702#comment-201589</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No, I am not saying money can&#039;t buy handicrafts. I was just providing an alternative example where utility and efficiency are not the only factors by which people value things. People value products based on not just utility, but many other factors too. Handicraft items, though expensive and inefficiently made, are valued by people just because they have been made a certain way. 

Also ... I am not sure how BSubs taught the course or what its contents are. But from a CS/Math perspective, defining fairness, morality and justice is a pretty challenging job. Ensuring that there are no contradictions in you logic and articulating the thoughts are much harder than they seem.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, I am not saying money can&#8217;t buy handicrafts. I was just providing an alternative example where utility and efficiency are not the only factors by which people value things. People value products based on not just utility, but many other factors too. Handicraft items, though expensive and inefficiently made, are valued by people just because they have been made a certain way. </p>
<p>Also &#8230; I am not sure how BSubs taught the course or what its contents are. But from a CS/Math perspective, defining fairness, morality and justice is a pretty challenging job. Ensuring that there are no contradictions in you logic and articulating the thoughts are much harder than they seem.</p>
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		<title>By: Khamir</title>
		<link>http://noenthuda.com/blog/2013/01/30/khamir-rouge/comment-page-1/#comment-201583</link>
		<dc:creator>Khamir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2013 14:32:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noenthuda.com/blog/?p=2702#comment-201583</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Arun,

We would have loved to engage with Karthik when we had the opportunity to do so. We believe that he has brought up relevant points. However he has chosen to present them as judgements that he has already made based on discussions he had with a couple of artisans - and we have no choice but to go with his interpretation of what they meant since he did not think it important to get other views or involve us in the discussion. The festival may not have worked for him, that&#039;s completely understandable. But to debate on the viability or relevance of the craft sector needs a more informed understanding of its historical, political, social and economic context. We are happy to engage with anyone who&#039;s interested. But we don&#039;t wish to get into a statement vs counter statement kind of argument. 
Karthik, just for the record, your money did not go towards funding the musicians, they were sponsored by Shemaroo and therefore accessible to people who love their music. Your money went towards food, logistics and paying the artisan teachers for the workshops.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Arun,</p>
<p>We would have loved to engage with Karthik when we had the opportunity to do so. We believe that he has brought up relevant points. However he has chosen to present them as judgements that he has already made based on discussions he had with a couple of artisans &#8211; and we have no choice but to go with his interpretation of what they meant since he did not think it important to get other views or involve us in the discussion. The festival may not have worked for him, that&#8217;s completely understandable. But to debate on the viability or relevance of the craft sector needs a more informed understanding of its historical, political, social and economic context. We are happy to engage with anyone who&#8217;s interested. But we don&#8217;t wish to get into a statement vs counter statement kind of argument.<br />
Karthik, just for the record, your money did not go towards funding the musicians, they were sponsored by Shemaroo and therefore accessible to people who love their music. Your money went towards food, logistics and paying the artisan teachers for the workshops.</p>
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		<title>By: Lavanya</title>
		<link>http://noenthuda.com/blog/2013/01/30/khamir-rouge/comment-page-1/#comment-201579</link>
		<dc:creator>Lavanya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2013 10:07:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noenthuda.com/blog/?p=2702#comment-201579</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Skimpy - I knit as a hobby and belong to an amazing social networking site called ravelry.com which has a discussion board. One of the commonest questions that comes up is how much to charge for your knitting if you want to sell your products. In the US - minimum labor is about $8 an hour. Even assuming that an artisan craft like knitting is only worth minimum wages, a typical sweater for an average knitter takes 20 - 30 hours. Yarn retails from as low as $1 a skein to some that is over $100 with the average price point about $8. An adult sweater takes about 1500 yds of yarn and at a minimum you are looking at $30 in yarn. Ignoring other aspects of the business a hand knit sweater should cost $200 for the producer. I can buy a sweater at Walmart labeled cashmere for $10 on sale! 
Commercial suppliers have economies of scale and bargaining power that artisans can never have. But there is a huge interest (ok not overly huge but some) in the market place for hand made one of a kind item. As long as the market place supports it and there is a demand - the supply is justified. This would explain the success of a website such as etsy.com - as a customer I am buying a more expensive and inefficient product because it meets my value set and its imperfections make it unique and hence perfect for the customer buying these products. Most of the purchases of this nature is aspirational after all. All this to say - the handicraft movement however inefficient it might seem to logical thinking is at the end of the day a case of supply meeting demand. &quot;Fair Trade&quot; is the new luxe.
It is a very disconcerting notion however that organizations have to resort to being a non-profit to get funding. Who is regulating this funding? What about the transparency of operations? Are the artisans truly seeing the benefits of having a center represent them or would they be better off fending for themselves etc - very valid questions.
And take up knitting for your ADD - I know it seems repetitive and boring when you are watching someone do it. But two simple stitches create an array of possibilities and you feel quite powerful when you realize you are creating a fabric and a garment at the same time that did not exist before. And repetitive movement brings about Zen like not much else can ;)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Skimpy &#8211; I knit as a hobby and belong to an amazing social networking site called ravelry.com which has a discussion board. One of the commonest questions that comes up is how much to charge for your knitting if you want to sell your products. In the US &#8211; minimum labor is about $8 an hour. Even assuming that an artisan craft like knitting is only worth minimum wages, a typical sweater for an average knitter takes 20 &#8211; 30 hours. Yarn retails from as low as $1 a skein to some that is over $100 with the average price point about $8. An adult sweater takes about 1500 yds of yarn and at a minimum you are looking at $30 in yarn. Ignoring other aspects of the business a hand knit sweater should cost $200 for the producer. I can buy a sweater at Walmart labeled cashmere for $10 on sale!<br />
Commercial suppliers have economies of scale and bargaining power that artisans can never have. But there is a huge interest (ok not overly huge but some) in the market place for hand made one of a kind item. As long as the market place supports it and there is a demand &#8211; the supply is justified. This would explain the success of a website such as etsy.com &#8211; as a customer I am buying a more expensive and inefficient product because it meets my value set and its imperfections make it unique and hence perfect for the customer buying these products. Most of the purchases of this nature is aspirational after all. All this to say &#8211; the handicraft movement however inefficient it might seem to logical thinking is at the end of the day a case of supply meeting demand. &#8220;Fair Trade&#8221; is the new luxe.<br />
It is a very disconcerting notion however that organizations have to resort to being a non-profit to get funding. Who is regulating this funding? What about the transparency of operations? Are the artisans truly seeing the benefits of having a center represent them or would they be better off fending for themselves etc &#8211; very valid questions.<br />
And take up knitting for your ADD &#8211; I know it seems repetitive and boring when you are watching someone do it. But two simple stitches create an array of possibilities and you feel quite powerful when you realize you are creating a fabric and a garment at the same time that did not exist before. And repetitive movement brings about Zen like not much else can <img src='http://noenthuda.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: rahulrg</title>
		<link>http://noenthuda.com/blog/2013/01/30/khamir-rouge/comment-page-1/#comment-201578</link>
		<dc:creator>rahulrg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2013 09:20:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noenthuda.com/blog/?p=2702#comment-201578</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What is wrong with private donors giving money to non-profits?

If Bill Gates, for example, decides that he wants to save these artisans and their craft, he can fund a company to do exactly whatever Khamir is doing. He can take huge losses and achieve his social objective.

Or in other words, if we eradicate malaria because of a generous private donor with a non-profit objective whose actions &quot;distort markets&quot; (in this case, pharma), is this wrong?

Who decides if &quot;malaria&quot; is a better objective than &quot;saving artisans&quot;?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is wrong with private donors giving money to non-profits?</p>
<p>If Bill Gates, for example, decides that he wants to save these artisans and their craft, he can fund a company to do exactly whatever Khamir is doing. He can take huge losses and achieve his social objective.</p>
<p>Or in other words, if we eradicate malaria because of a generous private donor with a non-profit objective whose actions &#8220;distort markets&#8221; (in this case, pharma), is this wrong?</p>
<p>Who decides if &#8220;malaria&#8221; is a better objective than &#8220;saving artisans&#8221;?</p>
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