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	<title>Comments on: Relationships and Prisoner&#8217;s Dilemma</title>
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	<link>http://noenthuda.com/blog/2009/11/09/relationships-and-prisoners-dilemma/</link>
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		<title>By: Akhilesh</title>
		<link>http://noenthuda.com/blog/2009/11/09/relationships-and-prisoners-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-3533</link>
		<dc:creator>Akhilesh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:13:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noenthuda.com/blog/?p=1507#comment-3533</guid>
		<description>Wimpy,

Society has a way to break this Nash Equilibrium. It&#039;s called marriage. Married couples do not obsess over each other 24x7. 

As a matter of fact, if one is out in a restaurant and one sees various couples on various tables, one can tell if they are married or dating, based on the amount of words per minute they are using. The unmarried couples will usually talk more, unless the married couple is engaged in a fight. 

Could the reduced effort a married relationship takes to maintain be an explanation for its evolution within societies?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wimpy,</p>
<p>Society has a way to break this Nash Equilibrium. It&#8217;s called marriage. Married couples do not obsess over each other 24&#215;7. </p>
<p>As a matter of fact, if one is out in a restaurant and one sees various couples on various tables, one can tell if they are married or dating, based on the amount of words per minute they are using. The unmarried couples will usually talk more, unless the married couple is engaged in a fight. </p>
<p>Could the reduced effort a married relationship takes to maintain be an explanation for its evolution within societies?</p>
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		<title>By: Introspective Pishachi</title>
		<link>http://noenthuda.com/blog/2009/11/09/relationships-and-prisoners-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-3526</link>
		<dc:creator>Introspective Pishachi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 05:24:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noenthuda.com/blog/?p=1507#comment-3526</guid>
		<description>WTF, that doesn&#039;t work either. I&#039;m missing an entire paragraph! I&#039;ll email you my comment instead.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WTF, that doesn&#8217;t work either. I&#8217;m missing an entire paragraph! I&#8217;ll email you my comment instead.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Introspective Pishachi</title>
		<link>http://noenthuda.com/blog/2009/11/09/relationships-and-prisoners-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-3525</link>
		<dc:creator>Introspective Pishachi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 05:22:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noenthuda.com/blog/?p=1507#comment-3525</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s my full comment: 


I suggest that you split the post and separate the engine analogy and the Nash equilibrium. The Nash equilibrium conclusion is stud. The engine analogy is substandard.  

Your table needs to be more rigorously defined. The quantity being represented is not readily apparent, and there&#039;s room for confusion. Crucially, the necessary condition for Nash equilibrium, that one party can say &quot;No matter what the other party does, I am better of doing X&quot;, is not satisfied (in your table, a11 &gt; a21, but a12  0)

Both taking the relationship for granted and remaining in full blast eventually lead to zero enjoyment. The first is the typical loveless (also hateless) marriage and the second is a boring &quot;they grew old together&quot; tale. The off-diagonals are interesting. If A doesn&#039;t care but B dotes on A, A&#039;s enjoyment increases, but only at a slow, decreasing rate with time. At max it saturates at 100*(1 + 1/alpha) (the alpha also takes care of the boundary condition at t=0). Even being doted on gets boring. 

On the other hand, if A cares and B doesn&#039;t, A&#039;s life gets more hellish by the moment, and at an increasing rate to boot.

It would also be interesting to see how the table would vary in an iterated version. In fact, regular relationships are like that. One party devotes less to the relationship temporarily for some reason or the other - say work constraints or a hot secretary - but then he sees the error of his ways and comes back, and there&#039;s a decision to be made again. We then need to start running a monte-carlo algorithm, but tit-for-tat-with-forgiveness &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma#The_iterated_prisoner.27s_dilemma&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;has been found&lt;/a&gt; to be a reasonably consistent &#039;good&#039; strategy for the classic iterated PD. &quot;Be forgiving by know your limits&quot; - Surprise surprise! 
--</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s my full comment: </p>
<p>I suggest that you split the post and separate the engine analogy and the Nash equilibrium. The Nash equilibrium conclusion is stud. The engine analogy is substandard.  </p>
<p>Your table needs to be more rigorously defined. The quantity being represented is not readily apparent, and there&#8217;s room for confusion. Crucially, the necessary condition for Nash equilibrium, that one party can say &#8220;No matter what the other party does, I am better of doing X&#8221;, is not satisfied (in your table, a11 &gt; a21, but a12  0)</p>
<p>Both taking the relationship for granted and remaining in full blast eventually lead to zero enjoyment. The first is the typical loveless (also hateless) marriage and the second is a boring &#8220;they grew old together&#8221; tale. The off-diagonals are interesting. If A doesn&#8217;t care but B dotes on A, A&#8217;s enjoyment increases, but only at a slow, decreasing rate with time. At max it saturates at 100*(1 + 1/alpha) (the alpha also takes care of the boundary condition at t=0). Even being doted on gets boring. </p>
<p>On the other hand, if A cares and B doesn&#8217;t, A&#8217;s life gets more hellish by the moment, and at an increasing rate to boot.</p>
<p>It would also be interesting to see how the table would vary in an iterated version. In fact, regular relationships are like that. One party devotes less to the relationship temporarily for some reason or the other &#8211; say work constraints or a hot secretary &#8211; but then he sees the error of his ways and comes back, and there&#8217;s a decision to be made again. We then need to start running a monte-carlo algorithm, but tit-for-tat-with-forgiveness <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma#The_iterated_prisoner.27s_dilemma" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner_27s_dilemma_The_iterated_prisoner.27s_dilemma?referer=');">has been found</a> to be a reasonably consistent &#8216;good&#8217; strategy for the classic iterated PD. &#8220;Be forgiving by know your limits&#8221; &#8211; Surprise surprise!<br />
&#8211;</p>
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		<title>By: Introspective Pishachi</title>
		<link>http://noenthuda.com/blog/2009/11/09/relationships-and-prisoners-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-3524</link>
		<dc:creator>Introspective Pishachi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 05:20:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noenthuda.com/blog/?p=1507#comment-3524</guid>
		<description>You have a serious bug in your SQL. Putting a semicolon breaks it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You have a serious bug in your SQL. Putting a semicolon breaks it.</p>
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		<title>By: Introspective Pishachi</title>
		<link>http://noenthuda.com/blog/2009/11/09/relationships-and-prisoners-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-3523</link>
		<dc:creator>Introspective Pishachi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 05:19:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noenthuda.com/blog/?p=1507#comment-3523</guid>
		<description>I suggest that you split the post and separate the engine analogy and the Nash equilibrium. The Nash equilibrium conclusion is stud. The engine analogy is substandard.  

Your table needs to be more rigorously defined. The quantity being represented is not readily apparent, and there&#039;s room for confusion. Crucially, the necessary condition for Nash equilibrium, that one party can say &quot;No matter what the other party does, I am better of doing X&quot;, is not satisfied (in your table, a11 &gt; a21, but a12  a21 and a12 &gt; a22.

It is also interesting to think how this table varies with time. I think the dependence would be (with the same columns and rows) : 

-50*exp(-t) 	100*(1 + 1/alpha - 1/(t+alpha)) 
-100*exp(t) 	-10*exp(-t)

(alpha &gt; 0)

Both taking the relationship for granted and remaining in full blast eventually lead to zero enjoyment. The first is the typical loveless (also hateless) marriage and the second is a boring &quot;they grew old together&quot; tale. The off-diagonals are interesting. If A doesn&#039;t care but B dotes on A, A&#039;s enjoyment increases, but only at a slow, decreasing rate with time. At max it saturates at 100*(1 + 1/alpha) (the alpha also takes care of the boundary condition at t=0). Even being doted on gets boring. 

On the other hand, if A cares and B doesn&#039;t, A&#039;s life gets more hellish by the moment, and at an increasing rate to boot.

It would also be interesting to see how the table would vary in an iterated version. In fact, regular relationships are like that. One party devotes less to the relationship temporarily for some reason or the other - say work constraints or a hot secretary - but then he sees the error of his ways and comes back, and there&#039;s a decision to be made again. We then need to start running a monte-carlo algorithm, but tit-for-tat-with-forgiveness &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma#The_iterated_prisoner.27s_dilemma&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;has been found&lt;/a&gt; to be a reasonably consistent &#039;good&#039; strategy for the classic iterated PD. &quot;Be forgiving by know your limits&quot; - Surprise surprise!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suggest that you split the post and separate the engine analogy and the Nash equilibrium. The Nash equilibrium conclusion is stud. The engine analogy is substandard.  </p>
<p>Your table needs to be more rigorously defined. The quantity being represented is not readily apparent, and there&#8217;s room for confusion. Crucially, the necessary condition for Nash equilibrium, that one party can say &#8220;No matter what the other party does, I am better of doing X&#8221;, is not satisfied (in your table, a11 &gt; a21, but a12  a21 and a12 &gt; a22.</p>
<p>It is also interesting to think how this table varies with time. I think the dependence would be (with the same columns and rows) : </p>
<p>-50*exp(-t) 	100*(1 + 1/alpha &#8211; 1/(t+alpha))<br />
-100*exp(t) 	-10*exp(-t)</p>
<p>(alpha &gt; 0)</p>
<p>Both taking the relationship for granted and remaining in full blast eventually lead to zero enjoyment. The first is the typical loveless (also hateless) marriage and the second is a boring &#8220;they grew old together&#8221; tale. The off-diagonals are interesting. If A doesn&#8217;t care but B dotes on A, A&#8217;s enjoyment increases, but only at a slow, decreasing rate with time. At max it saturates at 100*(1 + 1/alpha) (the alpha also takes care of the boundary condition at t=0). Even being doted on gets boring. </p>
<p>On the other hand, if A cares and B doesn&#8217;t, A&#8217;s life gets more hellish by the moment, and at an increasing rate to boot.</p>
<p>It would also be interesting to see how the table would vary in an iterated version. In fact, regular relationships are like that. One party devotes less to the relationship temporarily for some reason or the other &#8211; say work constraints or a hot secretary &#8211; but then he sees the error of his ways and comes back, and there&#8217;s a decision to be made again. We then need to start running a monte-carlo algorithm, but tit-for-tat-with-forgiveness <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma#The_iterated_prisoner.27s_dilemma" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner_27s_dilemma_The_iterated_prisoner.27s_dilemma?referer=');">has been found</a> to be a reasonably consistent &#8216;good&#8217; strategy for the classic iterated PD. &#8220;Be forgiving by know your limits&#8221; &#8211; Surprise surprise!</p>
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		<title>By: Hodeya pishachi andre bande gavakashili</title>
		<link>http://noenthuda.com/blog/2009/11/09/relationships-and-prisoners-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-3522</link>
		<dc:creator>Hodeya pishachi andre bande gavakashili</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 01:57:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noenthuda.com/blog/?p=1507#comment-3522</guid>
		<description>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjBR0N3BM4s</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjBR0N3BM4s" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjBR0N3BM4s&amp;referer=');">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjBR0N3BM4s</a></p>
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		<title>By: mk</title>
		<link>http://noenthuda.com/blog/2009/11/09/relationships-and-prisoners-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-3508</link>
		<dc:creator>mk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 04:42:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noenthuda.com/blog/?p=1507#comment-3508</guid>
		<description>Hmm. I get your overall point. However, &#039;scaling up&#039; by both parties is also enjoyable, so I&#039;m not sure why the payoff is -50. Its like doing enjoyable work, which can&#039;t be called work anymore.

Also, both parties scaling down is less enjoyable but a compromise, in which case its payoff should be lesser than both parties scaling up.

You are assuming that scaling up = work = more effort = pointless = -ve payoff. This is suspect, because work in this case is not boring work, hence not painful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm. I get your overall point. However, &#8216;scaling up&#8217; by both parties is also enjoyable, so I&#8217;m not sure why the payoff is -50. Its like doing enjoyable work, which can&#8217;t be called work anymore.</p>
<p>Also, both parties scaling down is less enjoyable but a compromise, in which case its payoff should be lesser than both parties scaling up.</p>
<p>You are assuming that scaling up = work = more effort = pointless = -ve payoff. This is suspect, because work in this case is not boring work, hence not painful.</p>
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		<title>By: sanjeev</title>
		<link>http://noenthuda.com/blog/2009/11/09/relationships-and-prisoners-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-3504</link>
		<dc:creator>sanjeev</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 18:03:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noenthuda.com/blog/?p=1507#comment-3504</guid>
		<description>To extend the metaphor... some relationships are in cruise control for too long and suffer from the mediocrity of the routine too. Coordinated shifts in gears - even down-shifting sometimes - may be highly recommended! ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To extend the metaphor&#8230; some relationships are in cruise control for too long and suffer from the mediocrity of the routine too. Coordinated shifts in gears &#8211; even down-shifting sometimes &#8211; may be highly recommended! <img src='http://noenthuda.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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